msmemory_archive

I'm glad you're happy -- but puzzled at the nest of feudal relationships. I know neither of the houses that you and Justin belong to (Silverwing and Windsmeet) are particularly active...but I also know you both have feudal dependents... just makes my head spin ;-)

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tpau

why would their belonging to households in any way affect their dependents?

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herooftheage.livejournal.com

Lots of ways. First, of course, is the additional time commitment to a group of people pretty inevitably impacts the time commitments to everyone else in one's life. Second, the mix of projects that one might now take on shifts somewhat, to accomodate the interest of the new group. Third, there's a shift in the company one keeps, which is likely to move the dependants as well as the person making the commitments.

Now being wise and prudent people, I suspect most of those changes have at least already partially happened, but I'd expect more coming in the future as well.

Now, our SCA relationships are quite simplistic compared to how relationships intertwined in period, and so I expect it'll all play out relatively simply, but you oughtn't to be surprised if you see at least some changes over the fullness of time.

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But I think new_man really answers the question himself: Silverwing is basically an alumni association, and I think that Windsmeet is, also.

Their own master-to-student relationships are unaffected, I think.

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baron-steffan.livejournal.com

Silverwing is basically an alumni association

After I recovered from splorfing at my monitor %^) I realized this is as succinct a description as could be managed. Yeah, Liam, that's about it.

But since the subject has been brought up....

Some of you (

herooftheage,

goldsquare I think, certainly

calygrey who was a member) may remember Old Silverwing. The current incarnation is very different. It's true: we don't really do anything as a household beyond the fact that some of us carry/accompany the EK Standard in Pennsic ceremonies (long story: we contributed and maintain it, like Darkyard with the War Horn). We do have a seat on Council, but have abstained on important votes (baronial elections) in the past and would likely do so in the future (although that's up to the Carolingian contingent, not to me). We're defined simply as anyone with a feudal relationship to me who doesn't deny it: that's dependents, former dependents, some few loyalists %^) from Old Silverwing (Arianwen, Johannes), and folks with explicit parallel relationships (

goldsquare). But there are some important points here: (a) despite my jocular use of the term "grand-esquire", it doesn't go beyond first generation (and never has)(b) Silverwings are absolutely free to make whatever connections make them happy and fulfilled. And in regard to my dependents, let it be noted that they are allowed, indeed encouraged to talk to and interact with whomever they want. Both of my apprentices are members of other households. No worries: their household secrets are their own, and whatever Silverwings say to each other stays with us; that's a fundamental tenet.

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Steffan: I meant no disrepect.

I was speaking as an individual member.

I just thought this was terrific news.

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baron-steffan.livejournal.com

Oh, no offense taken! It's just that it struck me as a funny characterization, and then I immediately realized how true and appropriate it really was.

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In this particular case, the changes are likely to be complex indeed, since

tpau will be living in cohousing with some of my household.

I expect there will be changes - there's pressure on me to pick my bow up again now that my health has improved, since shooting is customary from all able-bodied members. Also I will have more Pennsic chores and more fighter support. We'll be asked to attend more household meetings - and PARTIES! - as members. Although, as you point out, some of those changes that you might anticipate have already happened, such as our choice of Pennsic camping companions.

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tpau

I do not really see any more changes then in i joined a graduate program, or she joined a choir or something. another time commitment making scheduling more fun, but other then that? I doubt there will be much. She just became part of an SCA household that makes up 80% of the group of people i am buying a house with in the next year.

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Because that's how the feudal system works.

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tpau

yes, but the SCA doesn't really do the feudal system that way...

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No -- some people in the SCA don't do the feudal system that way. Some do.

Justin (maybe and Caitlin; I don't remember) had students in the past whom I thought were part of Silverwing, despite no direct connection to Steffan. I could be misremembering... or things could have changed.

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jducoeur

No, absolutely not -- Steffan doesn't even particularly *know* half our dependents, and none have ever been members of Silverwing. In that respect we're specifically different from, eg, VDK, which tends to explicitly aggregate fealty in this way.

Besides, I dispute the "how it works" assertion -- the proposition that "the vassal of my vassal is *not* my vassal" is, AFAIK, a reasonably period concept. In reality, it can become complex (both in period and in the SCA), but there's nothing particularly automatic about such a relationship affecting one's dependents. The feudal system in period was largely about fairly nuanced and specific contracts -- if anything, the SCA tends to oversimplify things...

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baron-steffan.livejournal.com

Let it be recognized that "household" can mean many different things. I've described what Silverwing is there for. I'm in another household myself, with another purpose: Ancaster. One might say it's my household in the sense that the term is usually used in the SCA. For one thing, they're the guys I camp with. But then, Ancaster itself is a consortium of members representing Silverwing, Schola Lucernae, Wishford Hall, Lockwood, VDK, and several other households from Bridge and Endewearde.

The relevant point here is that neither jducouer's and msmemory's other household connections, nor the activities of their dependents, are affected in any way by their membership in Silverwing. Their households -- Silverwing, Windsmeet, Lochleven -- all serve different purposes.

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tpau

or i guess mroe specifically... we do not do the feudal system. I am not in fealty to her and never will be...

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From the outside, you're in fealty to her. As her protege, people would describe you as a feudal dependent, regardless of what oaths you've sworn or not.

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tpau

ah. that is unfortunate.

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She is in my service, not in fealty to me, by mutual agreement. But I understand that claiming the title and belt of a protegee makes people believe she's in fealty.

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Right -- I absolutely understand that, and I understandf why Tpau's not in fealty to you. But people will describe her as a 'feudal dependent' as a catch-all phrase. She is your protege; proteges are feudal dependents. Therefore...

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Quack.

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fairdice.livejournal.com

Interesting! Back when Fiammetta and I were "the apprentices", I don't think there was any feeling of feudal relationship -- though of course we didn't see it from the outside, so maybe I just didn't notice.

But they were pre-peerage back then. Perhaps that made the relationship clearly outside the feudal structure? (Not to mention that the society changes over 15+ years.)

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(Hi Gwydden!)

It was actually you two I was thinking of. I had a distinct impression that you were 'Silverwing' by dint of the fact that you were apprenticed to Justin.

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Some people might.

I certainly do not look at my proteges that way.

Although, I do see them as having a connection to Silverwing.

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rustmon.livejournal.com

cool and congrats!

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cvirtue.livejournal.com

Congrats!

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dervishspin.livejournal.com

I am particularly enamored of the blue and green Squeee!

:)
YAY! Happiness! Welcome!!

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It's Kate's fault, since she asked me before whether it were a "blue and green tinged squeee" so I felt I ought to make it so.

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wench33.livejournal.com

I laughed like hell when I saw the colored squee :)

One of us, one of us!

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That is wonderful news!

I am very happy for you both.

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its-just-me.livejournal.com

Congratulations!!

From:

aneirin-awenyd.livejournal.com

{giggles happily}

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hfcougar.livejournal.com

Congratulations!

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goldsquare.livejournal.com

It was smart to keep the coolers hostage, just to be sure. ::wink::

I am glad for you both.

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