(no subject)

[msmemory_archive]

So we found this house.... it's pretty, it's very large, it's in move-in shape (though it could stand a few fiddly things like water-seal on the deck, and we would need to make sure the house inspector isn't seeing things we're missing). The catch is, it's in Framingham.

jducoeur posted in his journal that we are dithering. Unfortunately, it seems that most of the comments seem to be non-supportive of our moving out there. Waaaah!

I readily admit, we would already have earnest money on this house if it were closer in. No question, if it were in Waltham, or Watertown, we'd be all over it. (Though in Waltham, I think it would be in the upper 7s or low 8s in price.) Would our friends really not come to Framingham? Don't they already not visit us, and if so, does it matter if they still don't? We want to entertain - will we be refused?

More dither.

Comments

[palegreyminion.livejournal.com]

People still came to visit me when I moved over an hour further away. Granted, no one drops by for tea, but no one ever did in the first place. When I throw a party, people still come. They leave a bit earlier than they used to, but that's reasonable considering the longer drive.

I don't know how applicable my situation is to yours, though. All my friends already lived out in the suburbs, as did I. I just moved from the suburbs to the boonies. Public transportation was never in the equation to begin with.

[msmemory.livejournal.com]

I have to admit, I thought of you yesterday while we were driving around the area where the house is. Seems it's only half a mile or a mile from horse country. I think I could bike to the nearest riding stables. I might just have to try riding one of these days.

[goldsquare.livejournal.com]

A lesson.

In Calontir, there is a shire, that is very very very far away from the center of the Kingdom - in Arkansas. It is very active, and very involved in the Kingdom. They have promoted several sayings - one of which is "It is not further to Grimfells than from Grimfells". They say it often, at events.

In other words, if you and Mark keep connections with friends, the connections will remain. If you and Mark drop off the planet (hah), then when faced with the additional travel, folks who feel marginalized will show it.

There would be change, but I doubt there would be catastrophic change.

And, in the "hey, it's me, brutal honesty", I rarely go to your current house because even though I am not-allergic, the cat intensity gives me problems. If your new home would be the same, it would be the same. Mark may think it's cute that his hat has a second layer of cat fur, but I don't like to feel a need to go home and change clothing. (I mentally treat your current home as if you two were heavy smokers - as soon as I get home I wash my clothing, and intensively clean my contact lenses. This is not true for every "home with cats" that I visit.)

I think people are stating why it would be harder, not why it would fail. If they give a damn, they'll come regardless of distance.

[its-just-me.livejournal.com]

I agree 100% I have had enough people who I thought were friends drop into the casual aquaintance category because no matter how often I would visit at parties or even on a one on one basis they couldn't be bothered to come see me. If they're truly your friends you'll know it after you move.

[msmemory.livejournal.com]

It is our strong intent not to have the cat problems in the new home that we have in the present one. I hope the hardwood floors on the first floor would cut down on ambient unvaccumable cat hair.

For those who simply can't visit the home of a cat owner, I'm sorry. For those who have trouble in our current place, we hope it will not be as much of a consideration here.

[cellio]

<AOL>Me too</AOL>

Well, not about the cats, but about the relationships-with-other-people part. :-)

I remember Grimfells :)

[dmnsqrl.livejournal.com]

That phrase would frequently come up when they had travelled to another group's event, were talking with someone, and asked "so, when will we be seeing you in Grimfells"

I was also definitely reminded about them when I first was reading these posts about the possible house choice :)

[tpau]

mm, i have to agree with goldsquare (yes, pigs are flying)... while lots of folks, me included, said lots of stuff about th4e framingham location, we are just being selfish about it. give time, people adjust to the novel idea that htings change, and people move. it's not liek noone will ever speak to you because you moved outside the 128.

plus, yeah. really it's the cats, not the distance...

now, does this nifty hosue have a nice kitchen? :)

[laurion]

Hey, you should get used to viiting people in Framingham anyhow.

*nudge*

Devil's advocate - sorry to appear jaded

[its-just-me.livejournal.com]

I have found that moving separates what one has thought were good friends from those who merely associate. It's true that being closer in proximity makes visits more possible but when I was in Littleton and even now in Methuen I have people simply who WON'T come out this way because it's an inconvenience and I always have to drive to them. Don't confuse this people who aren't able to get out which is a totally different thing. However fifteen minutes to Framingham is not a lot to ask. Even a half hour isn't. Besides, you have new friends waiting to meet you near your next home. Those who are your friends will still be there for you.

[patsmor.livejournal.com]

Entirely from this end of the world: the two places I managed to get to when I'm in the Boston neighborhood are Cynthia & John's and Framingham, because I'm an alum at Framingham and a friend of the president of the College, and even though she's close to 70 and I'm close to 50, I still fear she'll skin me if I'm in the neighborhood and don't visit.

So.

However, I agree with most of what people say. My situation is that it isn't just 15 minutes, but people come to see me anyway. We have to plan more -- 2-3 hours away is not drop-in distance, especially now -- but it does happen. And the more I try to get into the bay, the more people try to get out to see me.

hugs. Framingham is lovely.

[lakshmi-amman.livejournal.com]

For the record - I am in Framingham rather frequently, - to visit other SCAdians - once a week, I'm in Natick for dance class, I come out periodically to see Li Kung Lo, Rhonwyn, or Eleanor & Fergus. Visiting yet another SCAdian out there is not going to wreck my style.

Yeah - I see more of the people in Dorchester, because they are 5 minutes away. But I make the effort, frequently, to drive to Arlington - which is neither in my work path nor my domestic path - for the joy of conversation with a fun textile geek.

[cvirtue.livejournal.com]

I'm sure that it would be a lot more expensive, if it were in another town closer in, as you say. That's partly why the further suburbs are attractive; you get more house & land for your money.

I think your friends will come visit you there. It's the acquaintances and 'not sure I will go to gaming tonight' people that will be less likely to visit if it's a little further. How much of an impact that makes is something only the two of you can decide.

Don't judge the comments as some sort of poll, because as you know from discussion lists, folks are most likely to natter on if it's something they're a bit negative on. Folks rarely natter on if they're positive; sometimes the positives don't post at all.

[rufinia.livejournal.com]

I asked about public transportation because while I am carless, I don't really want to inconvience my friends when I want to see them. So if I can work out a way to get myself to and from places, it's all good. Now, fortunately, I have pretty generous friends when it comes to rides and things. but I still don't want to put them out if I don't have to.

And I still think the commuter rail is neat.

[patsmor.livejournal.com]

I don't know about the commuter rail, but coming from NYC to see cvirtue and metahacker & flock on the Acela in a snowstorm was really, really, really cool.

LOL 15 min???

[camilla-anna.livejournal.com]

People just don't want things to change. Now, if you moved four hours away,
you *really* find out who your friends are. It'll be a little tough for your carless friends, though.

(and for the record, *Ekk and I* live in the boonies. Mistress Eleanor lives in the country)

Anna dimitriova
(Montgomery Center, Vermont)

[umbran.livejournal.com]

Don't they already not visit us, and if so, does it matter if they still don't? We want to entertain - will we be refused?


If they already aren't coming to you, moving to where they might not come isn't losing anything. It is merely not gaining one of a few goals you have for the new house.

More is the point - how much more difficult will it make coming in for you? It is easy to say that it isn't likely to cramp your style, but you need to think practically, almost brutally so.

If someone in-town organized a trip to a movie you want to see, how likely is that distance to get in the way? How often is the extra half-hour of round-trip travel going to bump a gathering of friends into the "not quite worth the effort" area? Remember that traffic will be a bigger concern. Layer on how often you're likely to arrive late or leave early due to the distance. Be on the pessimistic side of realistic. If you feel you can still honestly say "It won't slow me down", then you are okay.

[dsrtao]

Natick/Framingham have excellent movie theatres, not to mention Mall-Land.

Here's my thought. If this was the perfect place for you, you wouldn't be asking anyone else's opinion. So this isn't perfect; what is? The question becomes, is this good enough? Does it make you happy?

You may have to give up one of your goals: either "house perfectly configured for the parties" or "house central enough that friends will come even when there's no party scheduled". What's most important?

[goldenstag.livejournal.com]

I've found that as a general rule, people don't just "drop by because we're in the neighborhood" much anymore. However, if you invite folk over, it shouldn't be a problem.

I live in the SF Bay Area, and none of my friends lives within less than 20 minutes drive, and most of them substantially more. That said, if we ask folk over for dinner, or we want to go to the movies with friends, etc., as long as we make plans, it works out fine.

I think some of it is a shift in general in Americans and how they interact with people. For example, how well do you know your next door neighbors? I know that we've been in our place for over a year, and sort of know the people to one side of us (we know them by name, but we don't actually get together with them for anything), and don't know anyone else. I seem to recall that once upon a time people knew everyone in the neighborhood ...

[jducoeur]

Heh. Actually, one of the motives for moving is that we don't get along well with one pair of neighbors. The folks on one side are great (although it's true that we don't socialize with them particularly), but the other side have been a consistent thorn in our sides...

[laurion]

Myself and asdr83 have recently moved out to Framingham as well (now that she attends school out in North Grafton, it only made sense), and not only can I say that it seems to be a rather nice town once you get away from Rte 9, but that it is definitely not too far for people to come by with a casual invitation. I can safely say that we'd be willing to. *grin*

[43duckies.livejournal.com]

For me personally, my decisions about whether to visit friends and attend parties has almost nothing to do with where they are located. The deciding factors are:

1) my physical condition, in terms of pain level and energy; this directly impacts the amount of public transit I can handle, which is comprised of four subfactors (number of transfers, number of staircases --and/or steep hills-- I will have to navigate, distance I will have to walk, and total time of the commute). As I lose weight, my energy level increases and my pain decreases, so I'm getting out more.

2) My emotional health and energy and mood. I am, by nature, an introvert. I usually have fun at parties, even if I'm not as good at chit-chat as many people are, but I almost always have to push myself out the door towards the big people-gathering, even if I'm in my best mood. I'm also easily discouraged from socializing due to doubts about my own social standing/ability/desirability in the general community. If I'm feeling great, that doesn't stop me, because I know the only way to get to know people better is to go see them. And if I'm stressed, depressed, or over-tired, I'm going to be much less likely to go, even if I'd really like to. This is also getting much better lately; as my physical energy level increases, I am more able to take care of things that are stressing me, thus freeing me to have more fun.

3) How much I have to carry. This has been one of the major factors in whether or not I attend events. It can also impact my likehood of attending, say, workshops where I need to bring a sewing machine, or potluck dinners where I need to bring food, etc.

4) Transportation access, which is connected to a) my physical health/energy (see #1), b) my emotional energy, especially social confidence (see #2; specifically, this relates to my comfort level asking for rides), and c) my current financial situation (in that if I am less strapped for cash, using a Zipcar or even taking a cab may be possible, and paying for the commuter rail is less of a problem. Lately I have been pretty strapped for cash).

My point is, if I had a car I would not be any less likely to go to a party at your house in Framingham that I would at your house in Waltham. Distance is not the issue, and as for the other issues, overcoming them (which I am striving to do) is not very much different if your house is a little further away.

Now, speaking as someone who is frequently something of a homebody, I think buying a house you love that is a little further away is more important that buying a house you are settling for that is closer in. But other people would probably have other priorities.

[chaiya.livejournal.com]

Framingham is far from the center of the barony, and the barony is the center of the social circle we share. I've never been in your Waltham house, but Framingham would be far more difficult for most of the folks we know to get to.

On a more positive outlook, moving to a place that's very T-accessible and in the center of things has increased the number and frequency of people coming to visit *me*. I highly enjoy living in Porter, even though I know it's not for everyone. Living near the T is very positive for hosting events and having people just drop by -- two friends dropped by on a whim this weekend, just because it was convenient.

I know my needs in a house are different from yours, but I am hopeful that our friendship will survive, no matter where you live. :)

[msmemory.livejournal.com]

I hope so too. :) I presently see people after work, without going home, and that's likely to continue - regardless of where we end up living.

And if you ever need a place to run off to for the afternoon and just stare off into space and watch the chipmunks....

[corwyn-ap.livejournal.com]

I found that moving to Hudson decreased the amount that people would visit me, and also the amount I would visit them. But people still came out for parties.

I am having a much harder time getting people to visit me now. Maine is beautiful in the fall guys... We get beautiful sunsets over the water (in fact we are getting one RIGHT NOW).

[asdr83.livejournal.com]

On a random positive Framingham note, there are at least 3 Brazillian bakeries within 3 miles of our place out here and while we have yet to get a chance to try them if they are anything like the bakeries I visited in Brazil then it is a MAJOR plus point.

[dauphin1974.livejournal.com]

Nothing wrong with Framingham. If the location works for you, your friends will adjust. A house that you love is a wonderful thing to have, hold, and share. I am sure that the drive will be longer for both of you, though, for everything (or am I missing something?).

[hfcougar.livejournal.com]

We want to entertain - will we be refused?

I think that for planned ahead events, things people can pre-arrange rides for and mark on the calendar, it is unlikely that friends would refuse you. Many people in my experience will travel further, or otherwise go out of their way, for a friend's occasion. Getting more casual acquaintances and brand new people to come will be more challenging, but the planning ahead factor can sometimes overcome this.

For last-minute, impromptu events? Yes, you may be refused. You may encounter people who very much would like to go, but simply cannot. But you will probably find that many people will at least try.

Specifically regarding post-revels, however, there is one thing which has nothing to do with house buying. I wasn't sure whether or not to bring it up, but no one else has.

My perception since I moved here is that Wadsworth House is The Post-Revel Place. It's practically a given at this point (unless the event, say, ends at 9pm on a Sunday night or something). Maybe that is just my perception; I have only been here two years. For all I know this is a recent development.

I think creating a paradigm shift towards having your new house be The Post-Revel Place is going to be difficult, and living in Framingham is sadly not going to help, especially for borough people and the otherwise non-car-enabled. And I know if both you guys and Wadsworth were having a post-revel after the same event, I'd be facing a pretty tough decision. I don't know if any others would find it a tough choice. I'd also really hate to see any social division occur into "the people that go to WH" and "the people that go to Caitlin and Justin's".

[jducoeur]

For all I know this is a recent development.

Relatively, yes -- you're seeing the way things have been for maybe the past five years, but it was quite different before that.

You have to bear in mind, post-revels in this area are in pretty bad shape, relatively speaking. Carolingia used to do post-revels reliably and frequently: every event had one, and it wasn't terribly unusual to have two on an evening, although we tended to try to avoid that. The most central ones could be huge -- the one we still refer to as "the post-revel to end all post-revels" had over 50 people at it -- although that level was unusual. There was also more variety to them. I really, really miss having filking and SCA storytelling at post-revels, both of which are much more unusual these days.

Back at that time, there was no single post-revel place. Oh, there were always frequent locations -- House Windsmeet, back when it was a physical place, was one -- but when they really were healthy it was unusual for the same place to host post-revels for two successive events.

I don't really expect there to be any conflict here. First of all, I'd probably co-ordinate with Troy on the subject. AFAICT, it isn't that he's aggressively holding these parties -- it's that, since no one else is doing so, he's been stepping into the gap. (And letting himself get talked into it when necessary.) We'll have to talk, but I suspect he's not going to be heartbroken if he's not expected to have the post-revel after *every* event.

Second, we'd probably choose different events. Unsurprisingly, there's a pretty good correlation between where the event is and how well the Wadsworth postrevel goes -- typically, the further out into the 'burbs, the fewer people come. (There has always been a substantial relationship between proximity to the site and postrevel success.) So I suspect that, in practice, we'd mostly do revels for events that are outside 128, and Wadsworth more the ones that are inside, to have revels be more convenient after the event. In that regard, the Framingham location is potentially pretty useful -- it's less redundant.

Frankly, I think that would be for the best all around. The different houses have different strengths, and are likely to draw overlapping but not identical crowds. That can hopefully help to reinvigorate the concept of post-revels in general. The Wadsworth revels are fun, but they've mostly been drawing from a fairly small fraction of the Barony. Having the post-revels rotate a bit more is likely to help with that.

In short, none of this is about stealing the concept of "The Post-Revel Place". It's about the fact that the idea that there is only one place for all post-revels is a new, and not particularly healthy concept. Having a few places trading off is historically the more common pattern, and one I'd like to encourage...

[msmemory.livejournal.com]

Wadsworth House is The Post-Revel Place. It's practically a given at this point

Currently. The Post Revel Place used to be Sir Michael's house in Concord. Or the original Windsmeet apartment. Or any of several other places. It goes in waves. Someday, some other place will be The Post Revel Place - whether that's us or somebody who comes along after us.

We have no intention of undercutting Wadsworth. We enjoy going there. We hope the folks who live there will sometimes enjoy coming to our place.

[learnedax.livejournal.com]

They don't necessarily love being the default either. Having a horde of people descend for an unplanned party isn't always fun, and breaking up the idea that there was one default place might be good. They have plenty of planned parties as well.

Actually, given the locations it seems not unlikely that we will get a town and country division, where people are more likely to go to them for in-town events, but more likely to go to you for events farther out, since you'll be on the way back for many.