Not as bad as 33

[msmemory_archive]

The list I have of Crown entrants is 35 people. Perhaps a little attrition will happen and they'll get down to a perfect 32 by Saturday morning.

Luckily for me, since I'm not able to take tomorrow off to make the journey, THL alethea_eastrid is going to take care of forming up the procession according to my numbered list. (Any of my readers wanting a copy of the sequenced list in advance may contact me. I might even get arm-twisted to post it here.)

ETA: OK, OK. Why not. ETA2: Corrected.

1 (Herr) Lienhart Fischer von Torum
2 Damon Von Drachenklaue
3 Matthew of Wiltshire
4 Lord Joseph of House Serpentius
5 Lord Horace of Serpentius
6 Lord Atreides Coridan
7 Lord Sawney of Distant Shore
8 Lord Manfred
9 Lord Turi MacKinnon
10 Lady Cornelia Vande Brugg
11 Lord Asgar Roulfsun
12 Lord Big Damn John (Big Damn Lord John?)
13 Lord Perceval Gower
14 Lord Nicholas of Losthaven
15 Lord Ragnar the Frogg
16 Lord Guthfrith Yrlingson
17 Lord Barnabus O'Pheylan
18 Lord William Lancton
19 Lord Ceawlin Alreding
20 Lord Edmond O'Rourke
21 Baron Aethelhawk Keyfinder
22 Baron Diomedes Sebastianus
23 Baron Wulfhere of Stonemarche
24 Baron Berach MacTavish
25 Baron Lachlan Mac an Toisich of Benchar
26 Sir Edward Grey of Lochleven
27 (Syr) Yesungge Altan, Bahadur
28 Sir Wilhelm von Ostenbrücke
29 Master Julien de LaPointe
30 Pan Jan Janowicz Bogdanski
31 Sir Kenric of Warwick
32 Count Sir Gryffith Fitzwilliam
33 Jarl Valgard Stonecleaver
34 Duke Darius Aurelius Serpentius
35 Duke Andreas Eisfalke Von Ulm


I'm feeling eld. Kenric, little brother, is the senior bestowed peer in the list, other than royal peers. Yikes!

Comments

[citrine-moon.livejournal.com]

That's kind of funny.

Thank you for doing this for the East.

[daft.livejournal.com]

I twist.

*twisttwisttwist*

[rufinia.livejournal.com]

I join in the twisting!

(I remember one Northshield coronet where they ordered the processionby who got their AoA first, which while easy, was a profoundly weird line. They also did one where they combined the precedence of the couple, whihc was even weird, and profoundly complicated.)

[msmemory.livejournal.com]

We did one once where it went by the senior person of the pair, whichever that was. As there were a couple very new fighters entered for senior respected ladies, things looked very funny. To make matters worse, the draw was set up as challenge in by rank, which skewed those youngsters' places on the tree.

[artisticphoenix.livejournal.com]

heh.

One of the years that A fought for me I convinced him that we were so far up in the line was because he was riding on my coronet. It wasn't true, but it was well worth the laugh it got.

[hrldndva.livejournal.com]

In Gleann Abhann, we traditionally (well, as much tradition as you can have with 6 crown lists under the belt) process by combined precedence, but the challenges to determine the first round are by fighter precedence, with the lowest half on one side of the field challenging across to the higher half, and challenging from bottom up.

35....... wow. That's a big list. My condolences to the tourney staff.


Sarah from Gleann Abhann (just a random blog wanderer)

[rufinia.livejournal.com]

Hehehehe, for the East, it's pretty small, but the tourney is up in New Brunswick, so it's a long drive.

Northshield crowns tend to be in the 12 or so size.

[msmemory.livejournal.com]

We have seen as many as 65-68 but that was remarkable and unusually well-located for travel. (I was a co-autocrat.) I don't think we've had fewer than 30 in the last twenty-five years.

Geeky Questions

[anastasiav.livejournal.com]

I have some geeky technical questions

1 (Herr) Lienhart Fischer von Torum
Is this just a reminder to whomever is reading that he's Herr and not Lord, if so, why then do some listings read as:

5 Lord Horace of Serpentius
or
6 Lord Atreides Coridan?


I don't have a question about this, it just amuses me.
12 Lord Big Damn John (Big Damn Lord John?)



13 Perceval Gower Esq.
Is Esq. really an accepted term of address in the SCA? (I know its period, but...)

Along the lines of Question 1, why do we have this:
27 (Syr) Yesungge Altan, Bahadur
vs
28 Sir Wilhelm von Ostenbrücke
Aren't they both pronounced the same, or is there something else going on here?

29 Master Julien de LaPointe
30 Pan Jan Janowicz Bogdanski
31 Sir Kenric of Warwick

Jesus, I'm old.

Ivan has commented that one thing he'll find weird if he ever fights again is that people who used to be in front of us have moved behind us.

*sigh*

Re: Geeky Questions

[msmemory.livejournal.com]

Why some read lord and others don't.
The first four people on my list I have no record of having an AOA, so they do not have Lord listed. (Herr = Lord as far as I know).
Ragnar the Frogg has an AOA, but I forgot to type in his title, my bad.

Yep, he's Big Damn John. Then he got an AOA - now I don't know whether he wants it as a prefix or an infix. :)

Perceval Gower, Esq.
I have no problem with him using Esquire as his title of rank. But I didn't actually check the College of Heralds list of equivalents.

Syr Yesungge Altan, Bahadur
I inferred from places that I had seen it written that Yesungge was using Bahadur in place of Syr as his title. Since it would be silly for him to be Syr Yesungge Sir, I added the parens around one of them. Am I off-base here? I'm sure someone more knowledgable than I will tell me. (Hello, Adhemar? Tangwystl?)

Re: Geeky Questions

[lumineaux.livejournal.com]

Perceval Gower, Esq.
I have no problem with him using Esquire as his title of rank.

I have a problem with it, but not enough of one to bother with. In the grand scheme of things, it barely registers.


Didn't Andreas & Gabriella give Joseph of Serpentius an AoA? I remember reading that scroll.

Re: Geeky Questions

[msmemory.livejournal.com]

I know I haven't dealt with the Mudthaw report yet for one.

If your memory works like mine and you can remember what the site/event was, that would be a great help!

Re: Geeky Questions

[lumineaux.livejournal.com]

It was Mudthaw, I'm 99% sure of that.

Re: Geeky Questions

[liamstliam.livejournal.com]

Those court reports are on my LJ.

If I see it I will let you know.

Was there only once that the consort counted?

I think that's kinda cool.

Re: Geeky Questions

[handymonkey]

I thought I'd read something about this once, so I went digging. From the LoAR of Master Wilhelm von Schlüssel, Laurel King of Arms, July 1982 (emphasis mine) -

In answer to the question of Squire and Esquire as titles, Squire as a title rather than a job description was used in period for a landed noble of the lesser nobility (non-peerage). When William the Conqueror raised the greater Barons up to the peerage, the lesser Barons were not included, and they later became the country Squires. Esquire was the designation given to those members of the gentry who were placed above the rest of the gentry in law. This included justices, lawyers, military officers, and some ministers of state. They had the title of Esquire to indicate that they were of higher rank and so could presume to judge other gentles. Neither Squire nor Esquire as titles are appropriate for use for fighters in training under a knight in the SCA. The use of squire as a job description is appropriate.

The confusion is also in period. Squire had both uses in period, like many other multi-valued English words. In some cases, the uses overlapped. Knights were often of high rank, with a number of subordinates who were also noble. Thus a knight could have several men-at-arms under his command who filled the role of squire and of man-at-arms in battles, who actually held the rank of Squire. The nearest equivalent to the period title of Squire in the SCA is that of a holder of a Grant of Arms. I even considered allowing Grantholders to add Esquire after their names, but there was too much opposition to thise. It certainly is not proper for a non-armigerous fighting trainee to use Esquire. For Esquire to be allowed, there would have to be ranks of squires, with Esquire reserved for those who had received an Award of Arms and satisfied other criteria set down by the Crown or Corpora. To attempt to interfere in knight/ squire relationships in this manner would meet violent opposition from many of the knights. In consideration of all of this, I decided to forbid the use of Esquire entirely, to avoid the problem of defining its use, and to state that squire, like apprentice and protégé, is a job description, not a formal title.

Re: Geeky Questions

[lumineaux.livejournal.com]

I mildly object to the use of Esq. in the SCA on the grounds that I had to go through three years of law school and pass a bar exam to get that title. I find it disconcerting to see someone assuming a title still in use as a modern professional title (like Doctor) without having the qualifications. But, as I said, it's only an "eh, I wish he wouldn't do that" and I'm not about to expend a whole lot of energy on it beyond two LJ posts.

Re: Geeky Questions

[baron-steffan.livejournal.com]

Oh, I just remembered this data point. I've read and heard on more than one occasion that if one is a degreed college graduate, one is, at least by courtesy, entitled to the designation, by some British custom of which I know little else. I have no idea when that became custom, but I've run into it in more than one instance, including myself as it happens. Back in the days of hard mail, I subscribed to the newsletter of The Heraldry Society, and it came addressed to Steven Mesnick, Esq. I find it hard to believe that THS of all folks (founded by J.P. Brooke-Little) would mess that up, and I assume it was correct by some obscure Brit lights. I've also been told by a (non-lawyer) graduate of Cambridge that she had that right by virtue of her degree.

The restriction of "...,Esq." to attorneys appears to be a particular American custom. Of course, I Am Not A Lawyer, and I'm not claiming infallibility, but that's what I've been led to understand.

We don't generally get worked up about the assumption of ecclesiastical titles, for example. Why then be upset about an SCA squire using "Esquire", for which -- it may well be argued -- he has a far stronger right?

BTW...I call my Pelican proteges and Laurel apprentices "esquires", on the analogy of Knights of the Bath, who were (and are, IIRC) entitled to name two Esquires of the Bath at their investitures.

Re: Geeky Questions

[baron-steffan.livejournal.com]

Jeez, I remember reading that precedent first-run. (Yes, I'm old).

Keep in mind that the precedents of the earlier Kings and Queens of Arms are widely* deprecated, and Wilhelm's probably most of all. Just sayin'.

Nevertheless, I'm of two minds here. On the one hand, it would appear to violate, in a barely significant way, the unspoken Rule #1 of the SCA: Thou Shalt Not Be Tacky. At least I believe many would find it to do so. OTOH, it is "Internal Law", and in such cases authenticity trumps the letter of the law, at least in my mind, and it is the period thing to do.

* (albeit not universally, and not by me for the most part)

Re: Geeky Questions

[marymont.livejournal.com]

Squire is NOT a rank. It is a job one takes on when one enters service with a Knight. I'm a cranky old lady, I know, but this IS one that bothers me.

[duchessb.livejournal.com]

Geez, makes me glad Ronald didn't enter this one. We'd be bringing up the rear, again!

[peregrinning.livejournal.com]

I ask this to seek a better understanding of the process, not to pressure you to act.

Is it difficult to include the names of those they are fighting for?

I know more of the consorts than I do of the fighters themselves, so I'd love to see them included in the list. But I don't know how difficult it is to include that information in the list.

[msmemory.livejournal.com]

I have the names, but am following the extremely ancient and probably obsolete tradition that permitted the entrant not to disclose the name of his inspiration til the end. Of course, the consorts process with their fighters at the start of the day, so it's no longer a secret. Hm. Maybe I should post the consorts' names here too.

[peregrinning.livejournal.com]

Thank you for clarifying the issues involved.

If only it were your choice alone whether to post their names or not. :-)

[msmemory.livejournal.com]

Perhaps HRM brenwenthefaire is listening and will weigh in :)

[liamstliam.livejournal.com]

She's on her way to the event (She posted a bit ago that she was out the door).

I did not know there was a tradition one way or the other.

Personally, I think it would be nice. It does make some difference in handicapping and it would be a moment in the sun for the consorts.

(Not criticizing, commenting)

[peregrinning.livejournal.com]

I agree on the "moment in the sun" part. This is one of the big reasons I'd like to see a posted list with fighters and their consorts.

When I attended a Crown Tournament, I was embarrassed three times by walking up to friends of mine (from fiber arts circles, mostly) who were surprised I didn't know they were being fought for. I know of no way to find out this information other than being at the tournament, and watching the parade or paying close attention when fighters bow to the one who inspires them.

It seems odd to me that these people who inspire the fighters in Crown Tournament don't get more acclaim.

I note that I'm biased, having come from a kingdom and principality where posting the list of fighters and their consorts was long-standing tradition.

[msmemory.livejournal.com]

Well, this is the Cranky Old East. We didn't disclose the list of fighters before the day until about two years ago. (I'm still vaguely surprised that no one has objected to my posting the list today. Habit.)

[peregrinning.livejournal.com]

Vivant for the Cranky Old East! :-)

[estela-dufrayse.livejournal.com]

Thank you,
You have made my day, and shortly, my husband's!

Thank you, thank you thank you for posting this!