Crown

[msmemory_archive]

I love this kingdom, I really do. But sometimes I do get wry amusement from it.

About 10 days ago, which was early, I received my spreadsheet with the roster of Crown List entrants, so that I can prepare my Order of Precedence march of combattants. It was 29 lines, which was 30 fighters (one combattant couple, as usual). Looking it over, I discovered that half a dozen of the "usual suspects" weren't there, so I created entries for them, figuring I can toss out the extra cards if the Crown doesn't opt those fighters in at the last minute.

Just now, someone leaked a list of the entrants on a household list, forwarded from one of the shire lists. 43 names. Including some but not all of my "missing" fellows, and a couple of people I'd heard through the grapevine had submitted letters of intent but had not confirmed. Snicker. I'll bet that list is slightly longer yet before the day.

Now, personally, I'd be all in favor of doing as several (most?) of the other kingdoms do, and posting the list of entrants a week or two before the tournament. Surprise only goes so far - and a posted roster would cut down on the nudging and whispers. Then it could be all corrected and updated before the tournament day, too. I know the secrecy thing hearkens back to the First Tournament years, when a fighter did not have to announce his inspiration's identity until his victory, and I'm enough of a traditionalist to respect that, but I think there is also much to be said for proclaiming as a joyous announcement who the contestants will be, both combattants and consorts.

Comments

[baronessv.livejournal.com]

I'm personally in favor of that as well.
Random thoughts:
I'm excited about the prospect of 43 names. Is that combattants only or couples? If the former (which I'm guessing, since it's an odd number) that is so cool. I love Crowns best when they start with hordes of fighters. I doubt that many people will show up, but I can hope, right?
I may on crack, but I seem to remember back in ye Olde Days, when I first started in An Tir, it was a fighter's responsibility to know their own Precedence. There were no LoI's, so people just signed in and then lined up. Everyone knew sort of who was around them, and i'm assuming if there was a serious quibble, there was a herald handy with a printout of the OP. I'm totally not willing to get into a pro/anti-LoI discussion today (or most days, really, because I've had it 39487239 times and it tires me) but does it seem like this system (where YOU have to do minimal work) would even work? I mean, I saw it work from the outside (and I remember seeing some Crowns in An Tir that were heeyoooge) but does it seem remotely feasible to have the fighters take some responsibility?

[rufinia.livejournal.com]

I suspect that now, after years and years of having msmemory be the...um, memory... of the East kingdom, people would panic. Mass hysteria. Cats and dogs, living together. Now it seems that once you get people in line, they know more or less which clump they belong in, and Caitlin herds the end of the lime (dukes, counts, etc), and Justin cattleprods the rest into shape... it doesn't take terribly long.

Now, I really like having the lists published ahead of time. The speculation is a lot more fun if you have an idea of who is actually fighting, as opposed to who might be fighting.

[msmemory.livejournal.com]

The peers all know where they belong. They're the easy part of the line. What usually gets fouled up is some relative newcomer, or immigrant, who shows on my list as having no awards but has an AOA or Grant from someplace else.

Trust me, once upon a time I walked up to a pair of knights and said "You guys were both knighted the same day. Who was first?" and oh you betcha they knew.

43 is not an unlikely number. We've had up to 65 in my memory.

Precedence

[metageek.livejournal.com]

when I first started in An Tir, it was a fighter's responsibility to know their own Precedence

I seem to remember hearing (back around 1993) that the Southwestern Kingdoms (and, yeah, I'm probably overgeneralizing here) tended to have Grand Processions, in which everybody at a feast would line up in order of precedence. Was that true in An Tir? I imagine such a custom would fix everyone's precedence in their own minds quite effectively.

The context I heard this in makes a good story. I was living in Ponte Alto, Atlantia, and someone...call her Romana...was telling us about her trip to...I think it was the Outlands. She was going to be going to their Twelfth Night, I think it was. Another Atlantian she knew...call him Fred...had arranged with the King of Atlantia to carry his greetings to the King of the Outlands...which, in Fred's mind, made him an Ambassador. (Ominous music here.) When Fred heard she was going to be there, too, he said something like, "Oh, nice, we can both be Ambassadors!" Romana made polite noises, but apparently he took it seriously.

So, at the event, when the locals were lining up for the Grand Procession, Fred came along and grabbed Romana to join him...at the front of the line, since, as Ambassadors, they represented the Crown of Atlantia, and therefore ranked ahead of everybody except the King. (I suppose an Ambassador could even claim that he ranked ahead of a King from a younger Kingdom; but, fortunately, Fred didn't have the opportunity.) So there they were, not dressed up all that much (hard to fit an Elizabethan gown in carryon luggage), standing in front of all the Dukes and Duchesses of the Outlands, who were looking at them and asking what they thought they were doing. Why, they weren't even wearing circlets!

Romana was not happy with Fred. I gather, though, that he was too oblivious to notice, and thought he'd given her a wonderful treat.

[goldsquare.livejournal.com]

You know, you make a good point that it should be more open. As a trusted officer, do you think you could get it before Curia?

[msmemory.livejournal.com]

I do not think there exists a law about it presently. Tradition could be changed at the whim of the crown, right swanduchess?

[herooftheage.livejournal.com]

I know the secrecy thing hearkens back to the First Tournament years, when a fighter did not have to announce his inspiration's identity until his victory, and I'm enough of a traditionalist to respect that

I gotta tell you, it caused problems back then too, and I've always thought it was a pretty poor idea.

Uhm, I'm on the list, yes? Not that I expect great things from fighting in this crown, but I am interested in participating.

[msmemory.livejournal.com]

You are on the longer version of the list, and had been one of my insertions :)

[ornerie.livejournal.com]

in AnTir, the lists are totally open. no letter of intent, the fighters sign up the morning of, and line themselves up (makes for a good long time of standing around)

we will have 100 fighters sometimes.

every now and then someone suggests asking for letters of intent, etc and for the most part, people act like theyre being asked to eat babies :)

heh :). you hsoul dhave heard the hue and cry when they started requiring memberships! OMG!!!!

AnTir is funny :)

If by "funny" you mean "awesome"

[baronessv.livejournal.com]

See, I knew I was remembering right. Every single other Kingdom I've lived in they look like you like you've got extra eyeballs if you even suggest that Crown can work without an LoI.

[goldenstag.livejournal.com]

Same for the West, although I suspect you already had a good idea that was the case. <g>

[calygrey.livejournal.com]

The Quintavia list sent out a list of 43 names this morning. Likely the one you got?

[msmemory.livejournal.com]

Yep, that's my "43" list.

[rufinia.livejournal.com]

Looking at Kingdom Law, there is nothing said that the List must be kept secret. So the King and Queen would just have to choose to release it, and that would be that.

[msmemory.livejournal.com]

Which is what I said to goldsquare just a minute ago. Perhaps swanduchess will see this conversation and think about doing so.

[citrine-moon.livejournal.com]

Lucan posted the list of 43 to the Armour Archive yesterday.

http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=65584

I dunno why it wasn't sent to SCA East ro anything, but it is out there.

[rufinia.livejournal.com]

It'd be really cool if he'd included the names of the consorts, as well.

[msmemory.livejournal.com]

Thanks, Sis!

[cvirtue.livejournal.com]

Are there any deadlines involved in this process, which potential combattans are missing?

[katherine-barr.livejournal.com]

I really enjoyed putting together the Crown lists. Most of the difficulties come in when an entrant gives their letter of intent to either the Seneschal or the Crown, and not to both. It was much worse when the letters only went to the royalty, and the seneschal would not receive the letters from the royalty until shortly before Crown. And now, with letters of intent accepted by email, it is even easier.

The one draw back to posting the list ahead of time may be resolving outstanding membership issues. But again, with membership purchase available on-line and the seneschal's ability to now access the database directly, it may be possible.

[palegreyminion.livejournal.com]

And now, with letters of intent accepted by email, it is even easier.

Absolutely! Twice a year profesorpulls out his old email, updates the date and sends it off to trh@eastkingdom.org and seneschal@eastkingdom.org again. Takes all of about 3 seconds. We love being able to submit via email.

[goldenstag.livejournal.com]

Hmm. Inter-kingdom anthro time. In the West, the heralds aren't involved in this at all. The Lists office gets the list to the Crown, the Crown determines if anyone is not suitable (rare), and then determines which of the unbelted fighters will be moved to the belted list for the first round challenges. Interesting that someone has a list of who's fighting before the event. I think here in the West a bunch of fighters decide if they're entering the morning of the tourney. <g>

[rufinia.livejournal.com]

In Northshield for the Coronet tourneys, we required The Letter, copies of membership cards for both, copy of the front and back of the auth card for the fighter, proof they got the Pale (Midrealm Newsletter) and proof that they got the Northwatch (Northshield newsletter). Some people, in the interest of covering their butts, also sent in copies of their IDs, which resulted in embarassing happy birthday phone calls from the road.

[msmemory.livejournal.com]

Well, I need the list to compose the now-traditional (10 years or so?)procession of entrants. I'm real darn good, but I wouldn't want to do it on the fly if I could help it. Though I admit parsedgarnish and I were showing off at each other by practicing ordering the local tourney entrants last Sunday.

Up until now, I've been obliged to keep the list confidential. Now that His RM has posted the list, I think I might just get 'em sequenced and tell the fighters where they should stand in line, in advance.

[gwendolynbasing.livejournal.com]

I, for one, am annoyed. Not even those in my own house know who is on these lists! It always used to be so that you would have no unfair advantage.... I guess everyone wanted to make my last Crown Tourney as Kingdom Mistress of Lists memorable. Never before, to my knowledge, has the list been published/leaked prior to Crown Tourney.
We'll have to see if it makes any difference.

[rufinia.livejournal.com]

I don't understand. How is making the list public giving someone an unfair advantage?